safe questions

[dYsTrOyA]

Would have posted this in my my other safe question thread but it was closed for some reason :confused:

My question is in 2 parts:
I handed all my papers into tha police station last week and only have to have my safe inspected then Im good to go... Ive installed it and asked the policeman when it would be inspected and was told that someone would call me about scheduling a time for inspection. Now I know most of these things take time, but should someone have contacted me by now? I dont wanna seem impatient to the police as Ive read the best way to get your licence is to be smiling and patient but Im starting to worry if may have been forgotten about. how long will it generally take to be contacted and how long will it genrlly take to get it inspected and all done?

Also, with all this time to spare I have been thinking about this final step of my licensing process and am beginning to wonder what to say if the inspector denies my safe a pass. It is a safe I purchased from Bunnings (the laptop safe for $69) and I have installed it against the wall and floor at two points each (a total of four points) so Im all good there, but is there any possiblity that he'll say its no good and I need to buy a proper gun safe? Ive read in some places it depends on the inspector and how padantic he wants to be... If he says its no good, what should I say? When I did go to a gun shop to look at any smaller safes, the guy who owns the shop said that a Bunnings safe would be ok for pball guns.... Its just that the last thing I want to have happen is him deny it, I have to remove the safe and buy a really expensive gun safe and reinstall that ( it took me all bloody saturday at 37 degrees to put the bastrd in.)

Thanks for reading my essay of problems, any help and wisdom you can shine on my doubts would be much appreciated as always :thumbsup::bow:

[Royale]

Not sure what the laws are in W.A mate but i'll answer your 2nd question first by saying the safe sounds like it's secure and won't have a problem passing inspection. And if the officer is truely being a pain with it then he'll just ask you to make the necessary changes he thinks are necessary so that in complies with his standards.

Now, onto your first question, in melbourne i got my licence and pta. My safe is secured already but it has yet to be inspected. I am still (and have)legally able to take my marker home and store it there, on the proviso that it will be inspected by the police. The police have yet to contact me regarding a time and date to inspect the safe, but i'm ready whenver they do. Who knows, they might actually be catching criminals.

Are you sure the safe has to be inspected before you take your marker home? As long as it gets inspected at some point.

[acc1]

1 Week doesnt seem like to much. Id call again after 2 weeks.

If it doesnt pass then yes you need another.

And try get a full rifle safe in that weighs 100kg+, has 4 or 5 hex coach screws and 5 dyna bolts, it was a little bit of a pain.

Your lucky.

[Chief Wiggum]

Would have posted this in my my other safe question thread but it was closed for some reason :confused:

Just for your info, and anyone elses, if you want to post in a closed thread all it takes is a pm to a moderator and it will be reopened. The reason we close threads is so useful and topical threads dont get spammed, so they can remain a research tool for others without the "rorey" factor.

And it sounds like your safe is ok, but you answered your own question. If you get a pain in the butt inspector then he may say its not good enough. But remember this, the inspector is there to help you pass your inspection. They are not there to stop as many people as possible from obtaining a licence. So I am sure they will be more than helpful and you will have your licence, hopefully sooner rather than later.

Oh an as a rant, remember that WA laws are a lot better than SA laws, so I dont want to hear any complaining about process time. :D

[dYsTrOyA]

ok Chief Wiggum thats good to know about the closed threads, and I can now see you reasoning behind it. Feel free if you wish to merge this with my other thread, I dont mind either way.

The reason I ask my second question is because I did read on pbchat that one guy had his safe denied by the police and they wouldnt be reasonable in there explanation (I believe it was a bunning safe....ill tri to dig up the link) and so he took it up with the firearms registry and they confirmed he was right, it was legally ok and the FAR overruled the policewomans decision. I was just wondering if this could happen again and how I should go about it if it does....



My safe is secured already but it has yet to be inspected. I am still (and have)legally able to take my marker home and store it there, on the proviso that it will be inspected by the police. The police have yet to contact me regarding a time and date to inspect the safe, but i'm ready whenver they do. Who knows, they might actually be catching criminals.

Are you sure the safe has to be inspected before you take your marker home? As long as it gets inspected at some point.

This is a total revelation for me, does anyone know if this is the case in WA aswell??? THat would be great if it is

[Royale]

If i were you i'd make a call to your firearms registry or wheover governs the licensing/pta in your state and they'll clear up any questions you have regarding whether you can take the marker home assuming your safe is secure and ready for an inspection time/date they nominate.

[gman]

ok Chief Wiggum thats good to know about the closed threads, and I can now see you reasoning behind it. Feel free if you wish to merge this with my other thread, I dont mind either way.

The reason I ask my second question is because I did read on pbchat that one guy had his safe denied by the police and they wouldnt be reasonable in there explanation (I believe it was a bunning safe....ill tri to dig up the link) and so he took it up with the firearms registry and they confirmed he was right, it was legally ok and the FAR overruled the policewomans decision. I was just wondering if this could happen again and how I should go about it if it does....




This is a total revelation for me, does anyone know if this is the case in WA aswell??? THat would be great if it is

hey destroya

1. bunnings safe is A-Ok you wont have to worry about it. If it is a probelm lodge a compliant cause nearly everybody has a bunnings safe installed.

2. Chase them for that interview. I am surprise they didnt even arrange a day with you. Request for a specific time. Usually they will tell you when they are available.

3. Bringing your marker home...i dont think the paintball field that you purchase it from would even let you take it without that PTA.

you should be fine cause my pal has the same safe as you:). When you are done visit wasp on wednesday(training day)

Gman

[CroC]

hey destroya

1. bunnings safe is A-Ok you wont have to worry about it. If it is a probelm lodge a compliant cause nearly everybody has a bunnings safe installed.

2. Chase them for that interview. I am surprise they didnt even arrange a day with you. Request for a specific time. Usually they will tell you when they are available.

3. Bringing your marker home...i dont think the paintball field that you purchase it from would even let you take it without that PTA.

you should be fine cause my pal has the same safe as you:). When you are done visit wasp on wednesday(training day)

Gman

Gtrain...we have "Temporary Permits" not PTA's...
That's an eastern states thing. ;)

And yes, we've all got Buggings $29 safes that are fine with the Firearms officers...just depends if they want to screw around with you on the day of inspection and ask you to install two safes for our "paintball ammunition" right Gman?

Hehehehe...

:lol::lol::lol:

[dYsTrOyA]

just depends if they want to screw around with you on the day of inspection and ask you to install two safes for our "paintball ammunition" right Gman?

Hehehehe...

:lol::lol::lol:

as pauline hanson would say: plz explayn???

[Warpaint]

as pauline hanson would say: plz explayn???

There is probably a requirement in some Jurisdictions to store ammunition seperately in a safe - in otherwords, a joke. (unless someone decides paintballs are ammo.)

My Bunnings safe was accepted by the firearms office at Joondalup. I'd recommend a polite inquiry every week or two until they get around to scheduling an inspection with you. For the firearms application itself, they won't follow it up, you will need to follow up on it after the 28 days or whatever the waiting period is (I'm blurry on the details since its been a year or two)

[MelonFarmer]

Probably a good idea to put WA in the thread title to let people know what state you're discussing. :kiss: :beer:

[escapee]

xxx

[Chief Wiggum]

There is probably a requirement in some Jurisdictions to store ammunition seperately in a safe - in otherwords, a joke. (unless someone decides paintballs are ammo.)

Hate to tell you but paintballs are classed as ammo !

[Pounder]

Hate to tell you but paintballs are classed as ammo !

Up to the discretion of the attending officer though. Had one say it was and had to be treated as such, had another laugh and shrug his shoulders saying it shouldn't be a problem.

[alien]

Im pretty sure its a federal/state thing...

Customs class it as ammunition and it is treated as such - however state law doesnt treat it as ammo (in WA at least) - however when doing my first license application i was asked where i stored my paint (in my bedroom) and they were happy with that as the safe is in another room.

I can imagine if they made paint ammo, the size of the safe some fields would need to store their 1 weeks supply, let alone a months worth! haha

[Yeuie]

Here is the schedule from the Firearms Reg 1973 which relates to what is required for an approved safe;

Schedule 4 — Specifications for storage cabinets or containers
[Heading inserted in Gazette 6 Dec 1996 p. 6847.]
[r. 11A(2)]
1. Construction
(1) The cabinet or container is to be constructed of mild steel that is 2 mm thick.
(2) A joint between 2 faces that is butt welded is to have a continuous weld along the full length of the joint.
(3) A joint where the edge of one face is folded over the edge of another face is to be stitch welded, with welds of at least 20 mm in length at intervals of not more than 100 mm between welds.
(4) Spot welding is not to be used on the joints between faces.
(5) The cabinet or container is to be so designed that no firearm or ammunition within it can be removed from it while it is locked.
(6) In this clause —
“face” means a side, the top, or the bottom, of the cabinet or container.
[Clause 1 inserted in Gazette 6 Dec 1996 p. 6847.]
2. Doors
(1) Doors are to be recessed into the surrounding frame with margins of not more than 4 mm.
(2) Each edge of the door and door frame is to be internally supported and have a return of at least 10 mm.
(3) The cabinet or container is to have an internal stop of at least 10 mm against which each edge of the door, other than the hinged edge, closes.
(4) The supports and stops required by subclauses (2) and (3) are to be welded at the corners.
[Clause 2 inserted in Gazette 6 Dec 1996 p. 6847.]
3. Hinging mechanisms
(1) Hinge protection is to be provided in such a way that, if the hinges are removed, the door of the cabinet or container remains in place and locked.
(2) If the hinged edge of the door is not longer than 1 metre, 2 hinges are required on it, and if it is longer than 1 metre, an additional hinge is required for each additional 500 mm or part thereof.
(3) If 2 hinges are required, the distance between them is to be not less than one third of the length of the hinged edge.
(4) If more than 2 hinges are required the distance between adjacent hinges is to be the same and that is also to be the distance from each of the outermost hinges to the nearest end of the hinged edge.
(5) If a spindle is used instead of hinges, it is to extend the full length of the hinged edge of the door and is to be attached to the door by welds the number and placement of which comply with the requirements of subclauses (2), (3), and (4) for the number and placement of hinges.
(6) If, instead of using hinges, the door swings on a spindle or on pivots not extending the full length of the hinged edge of the door, the cabinet or container is to incorporate a return protecting the hinged edge, along its full length, against the use of a jemmy.
[Clause 3 inserted in Gazette 6 Dec 1996 p. 6847-8.]
4. Locks and locking points
(1) If the swinging edge of the door is not longer than 500 mm, one lock is required with a locking point half way along that edge.
(2) If the swinging edge is longer than 500 mm but not longer than 1.5 m —
(a) 2 locks are required each with a separate locking point along the swinging edge; and
(b) the distance between the 2 locking points is to be not less than one third of the length of the swinging edge.
(3) If the swinging edge is longer than 1.5 m —
(a) for each additional 500 mm or part thereof there is to be an additional lock with a separate locking point along the swinging edge; and
(b) the distance between adjacent locking points is to be the same and that is also to be the distance from each of the outermost locking points to the nearest end of the swinging edge.
(4) It is sufficient compliance with subclause (2) if, when the swinging edge is longer than 500 mm but not longer than 1.5 m, there is one lock with at least 3 separate locking points.
(5) Each lock is to have a 5 pin mechanism that deadlocks the bolt in the locked position until it is properly unlocked.
(6) If the locking bolt is designed to be released by a handle or lever, the design is to be such that, if the handle or lever is forcibly removed while the door is locked, the bolt remains in the locked position.
(7) The cabinet or container is to be fitted with a protective structure to guard against the forcible removal of any lock.
(8) In this clause —
“locking point” means the point at which the bolt locks the door to the cabinet or container, preventing the door from opening;
“swinging edge” means the edge of the door opposite the hinged edge.
[Clause 4 inserted in Gazette 6 Dec 1996 p. 6848-9.]
5. Anchoring
(1) The cabinet or container is to be securely anchored from the inside at 2 points on each of 2 separate surfaces to 2 immovable structural surfaces by means of 8 mm x 75 mm masonry fixing bolts or coach screws, as is appropriate.
(2) At each anchor point the cabinet or container is to be reinforced with a 40 mm x 40 mm x 2 mm metal plate, or a 40 mm x 2 mm metal washer, fitted between the surface of the cabinet or container and the head of the bolt or coach screw.
[Clause 5 inserted in Gazette 6 Dec 1996 p. 6849.]

In terms of paintballs being ammunition and are to be stored separately, they are not considered ammunition under the defiinition as it does not have a propellant. They are defined as Paintball pellets under the Firearms Act 1973. So, technically is not required to be stored in an approved safe. The below section relates to storage and does not mention paintball pellets, only ammunition.

11A. Storage security requirements

(1) A person entitled to possess firearms or ammunition of any kind is to ensure that the firearms or ammunition are stored in accordance with this regulation.

(2) Firearms and ammunition are to be stored in a locked cabinet or container that at least meets the specifications described in Schedule 4 or in such other way as is approved.

(3) A cabinet or container that can be unlocked with a key is to be regarded as unlocked if the key is left in the lock or is otherwise accessible where the cabinet or container is located.

[(4)- (6) repealed]

(7) A magazine is not to contain any ammunition when it is stored.

(8) Ammunition is not to be stored in a cabinet or container in which a firearm is stored unless the ammunition is in another locked metal container in which no firearm is stored and which is securely affixed so as to prevent its removal from the cabinet or container.

(9) Despite subregulation (8), propellant that is not incorporated in a cartridge is not to be stored, whether or not it is in another container, in a container or cabinet that contains any ammunition, firearm, or primer.

(10) The requirements of this regulation are in addition to, not instead of, any requirements under the Explosives and Dangerous Goods Act 1961.

[Regulation 11A inserted in Gazette 6 Dec 1996 p. 6801; amended in Gazette 24 Sep 1997 p. 5367.]

The reason why it could take a while for your cabinet to be inspected is that the coppers who inspect them are the same ones which do general duties so depending on how busy they are is how quick they will inspect it. A pleasant phone call doesn't go astray either as inspecting cabinets are not top priority.

Isn't legislation fun?

[Daggz]

Im pretty sure its a federal/state thing...

Customs class it as ammunition and it is treated as such - however state law doesnt treat it as ammo (in WA at least) - however when doing my first license application i was asked where i stored my paint (in my bedroom) and they were happy with that as the safe is in another room.

I can imagine if they made paint ammo, the size of the safe some fields would need to store their 1 weeks supply, let alone a months worth! haha

Paint is classed as ammo here in SA, and our paint is required to be stored in a lockable room, in our case a shed because we buy it by the pallet, and when transporting it to the field, in a lockable trailer, these is our requirements and we've been doing this since 1993. Or are the inspectors tougher on field operators?

[Chief Wiggum]

No thats correct, in SA it is classed as ammo and must be stored accordingly. Customs treat it as ammo hence you need a B709a to import.

[CroC]

as pauline hanson would say: plz explayn???

Basically what's been said by Youie and Alien already.

My mate is under a "certain" police jurisdiction in let's say "a northern" suburb. His firearms officer got it all wrong and forced him to installed two safes. One for his marker and one for what she (the firearms officer) interpreted as "ammunition". As stated in the Firearms Act of WA that paintball is not classed as ammunition as such over here. So a quick phone call to Firearms confirmed this...however, still, that local firearms officer INSISTED my mate "Gman" install two.

So it yeah it sucks how the law interprets the law unto itself depending on the mood of the firearms officer of the day...

:hammer:

[GTO923]

yeah i was also made to install to safes one for the marker and one for the paintballs...

i could of argued it with and told him that i only needed one

but for $30 and 20mins work i thought it would be easier to just install the second and keep him happy

[Yeuie]

Or you could just say I don't take home any left over paintballs. :angel:

[Chief Wiggum]

You could say "I buy them at the field and shoot them there. Dont bring any home"

Firearm specific safes have a lockable compartment inside the safe that you can keep ammo in, however these safes usually retail for about $300 so you are probably better off buying 2 cheap ones.

[dYsTrOyA]

Yes, they are classified as paintball pellets in WA, the police wrote that on my firearm form.

So once my safe is passed, what do I have left to do? I have done the following:

1. Completed firearms test (the one with 20 questions)
2. Handed in both forms (my details and details of firearm)
3. Handed in my Paintball club membership form
4. Finished my 30 day waiting/cooling off period

Now once my safe in cleared.... I think I need to goto police stn, get temporary permit to pick it up, go get gun and drive directly to police station where they will get serial number and thats it? Dont I need to apply for and obtain a PTA in there somewhere? How long is that likely to take? Can I apply for that before my safe is cleared to hurry things along (ie now)?

Thanks, Im just so keen to get this bloody thing sorted all out and wanna know how long it'll be before I get my gat home...

Cheers all

[acc1]

You could say "I buy them at the field and shoot them there. Dont bring any home"

Firearm specific safes have a lockable compartment inside the safe that you can keep ammo in, however these safes usually retail for about $300 so you are probably better off buying 2 cheap ones.

Try NSW safe lol, spent $800 on mine. Will fit 5 rifles tho.

[Yeuie]

You are correct in what has to happen next, but PTA? What the hell is that? We don't do PTA's in WA.

If you do what you said then you will be alright. Get PTA out of your head.

[dYsTrOyA]

oh k cheers thats good news. So what do I do if I want a second marker? Do we have PTA's then? or something else?

[bubba]

Exact same process for second marker but without the 20q test and the safe inspection.

[Yeuie]

Exactly the same, but without the 28 day cooling off period and another $27 of your hard earned money.

Essentially, if you got all your shit together you could get it done in one day, cos they don't need to inspect your cabinet again.

Or if you can, get the second marker done at the same time as your first marker and waive the $27 noting fee later on.

[CroC]

Exactly the same, but without the 28 day cooling off period and another $27 of your hard earned money.

Essentially, if you got all your shit together you could get it done in one day, cos they don't need to inspect your cabinet again.

Or if you can, get the second marker done at the same time as your first marker and waive the $27 noting fee later on.

Yeah...but usually it takes about 28 #$%^@#*&@# days for them to process a second one...well, apparently I'm in the busiest police district in WA...or so they tell me... :hammer::hammer::hammer:

[Nat]

Paintballs as ammo tricky one. if the bag was open they could be spent rounds colected from a field there is no diference between one that is fresh and one fired. I see them as un-primed projectiles much the same as when you buy a bag of 1000 projectiles for handloading rifle shells just a bag of odd shaped little lead balls. the laws regarding paintball are not written for paintball rather paintball has been made to fit firearms leg. for the sake of it put your paintballs in a locked container you can get a cheap tool box for a fraction of the price of a box of paint and if you get a visit you can prove that you are responsible and do take ownership of your sport.
just my 2c worth.

[dYsTrOyA]

Paintballs as ammo tricky one. if the bag was open they could be spent rounds colected from a field there is no diference between one that is fresh and one fired. I see them as un-primed projectiles much the same as when you buy a bag of 1000 projectiles for handloading rifle shells just a bag of odd shaped little lead balls. the laws regarding paintball are not written for paintball rather paintball has been made to fit firearms leg. for the sake of it put your paintballs in a locked container you can get a cheap tool box for a fraction of the price of a box of paint and if you get a visit you can prove that you are responsible and do take ownership of your sport.
just my 2c worth.

So your saying that if the police say I need a safe/lockable container for ammo all I need is a lockable toolbox, not a whole other safe?

[CroC]

So your saying that if the police say I need a safe/lockable container for ammo all I need is a lockable toolbox, not a whole other safe?

Like I said, it depends on the officer that's dealing with your stuff. If he or she feels like "interpreting the law" their own way, then you're screwed.

Just say you don't bring it home and all paint is bought and used at each specific field(s) (which is true anyway).

Ring Firearms Main branch if they (your local) want to stuff you around.

[Nat]

I can only say that in SA you need to secure ammunition in a locked separated container. therefore i belive a tool box of reasonable strength should suffice. I can not quote you destroya on the requirements in WA however call and find out the exact requierments for ammo storage in your state then let us know.

[dYsTrOyA]

Will do, I have inspection sometime this week, I'll post here how it goes.... stay tuned yall :D


....you should be fine cause my pal has the same safe as you:). When you are done visit wasp on wednesday(training day)

Will do, hopefully next week, I'll c you then :thumbsup:

[dYsTrOyA]

safe was passed! woo friggin hoo!!!

The Police came in, asked for me to open it and asked if all bolts were correct size. I said yes (I put bolts in that were slightly BIGGER than required) then they gave it a shake (or tried to, the thing's rock solid) and passed it. They did comment on the small size of it but I explained it was for a paintball marker and it was all good. They said that the papers have now gotta get sent to the Firearmes Registry, and they said this could take 2 or more weeks!! Approx how long does this paper process take? Im so keen to get this done, how long has it taken you guys for this to be sent off? It seems like a year ago I started this! (was only 1.5 months ago hahaha im so impatient). For all people who are starting the licensing process in WA, I would totally suggest installing your safe and getting it inspected as soon as you apply for your 30day waiting period... that way the time taken for them to come out and inspect it (2.5 weeks for me) and the time for them to send papers to FAR (Ive been told 2 weeks but I will update this when it happens) can be taken up by the cooling off period anyway.

[gman]

safe was passed! woo friggin hoo!!!

The Police came in, asked for me to open it and asked if all bolts were correct size. I said yes (I put bolts in that were slightly BIGGER than required) then they gave it a shake (or tried to, the thing's rock solid) and passed it. They did comment on the small size of it but I explained it was for a paintball marker and it was all good. They said that the papers have now gotta get sent to the Firearmes Registry, and they said this could take 2 or more weeks!! Approx how long does this paper process take? Im so keen to get this done, how long has it taken you guys for this to be sent off? It seems like a year ago I started this! (was only 1.5 months ago hahaha im so impatient). For all people who are starting the licensing process in WA, I would totally suggest installing your safe and getting it inspected as soon as you apply for your 30day waiting period... that way the time taken for them to come out and inspect it (2.5 weeks for me) and the time for them to send papers to FAR (Ive been told 2 weeks but I will update this when it happens) can be taken up by the cooling off period anyway.


Congrats destroya

If you're lucky you might get it in a week but usually 2 weeks and bit for the paper work to be processed. Unless they find something about you that doesn't match up to what you have on your application add another two weeks.

Gman

[CroC]

You should be fine Destroya. Give or take a couple of weeks depending on how much crime is happening in your area even as we speak coz we're way low on their lists of priorities. :D

[dYsTrOyA]

suhweet I'll let ya'll know when it gets sorted....