What is a legal air system ?????

[Fly Angel]

Have been speaking to various departments on what is a legal air system and have found out some interesting facts.
To cut a long story short air bottles that have a life span of 15 years ie fibre wrap as long as they have the dot number they do not have to be tested.
If you are filling these bottles direct from a compressor then yes they have to have all the relivant australian standard numbers but if you are DECANTING from a scuba tank that CANNOT fill your bottle over the 3000 or 4500 psi rating then you dont have to have these numbers.
According to these departments that the key word in all this is DECANTING not FILLING from a compressor unit direct.

If somebody can find a document that says that you need any different could you please let us know as to where we can obtain it as no one has been able to prove that DECANTING from a scuba tank requires air bottles with the numbers that have been talked about in here on bills ????

Jamie Cracker maybe you could answer this for us !!!!!!

:angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel:

[Jamie_Cracker]

mmmmm sounds interesting....the problem is that you can speak to 2 different people in the same government department and not get anywhere near the same answer...i will have a look in some documents I have but dont hold your breath

[Hideous]

Its what Workcover Vic told me as well.
YOU are responsible if it blows up in your hands when you decant.

Naturally most SCUBA and SCBA cylinders are AS or International Equivalent and a commercial operator can comply with Workcover in their State and fill them.


On that note :


1. AS2030.1-1999 The verification, filling, inspection, testing and maintenance of cylinders for storage and transport of compressed gases

Part 1: Cylinders for compressed gases other than acetylene in part states:

4.1 Manufacturing standards New gas cylinders intended for use in Australia shall be manufactured as follows:
(a) In accordance with the appropriate Australian Standard; or
(b) In accordance with National or Supra-national Standards, in which case, the cylinders shall comply in all respects with the design and manufacturing requirements of that particular Standard.

NOTE: Supra-national Standards are those such as ISO or CEN.

(c) In addition, the specification shall be with the agreement of the parties concerned.

Note: This clause means cylinders have to be manufactured to recognised specifications. Examples are: Australian AS1777, AS2764; National BS5045/1, DOT3AA, TC3AL; Supra-national ISO; European TEPD


Carlton tech and Luxfor self imported tanks are not "illegal" in any sense, but will strip any COMMERCIAL operator of his Workcover insurance for YOU the user and HIM the fillstation owner if anything goes POOF!

[Booney]

Thank you for that info

[WAH11]

Fly angel is correct.
The australian standard only refers to the filling of air cylinders. If you are Decanting the air from one cylinder to another it is not classed as filling,as long as the cylinder you are decanting from is NOT connected to a compressor.Small air cylinders,like the ones we use in paintball can be used as long as they have the correct markings on it from the country of maufacture, eg america use a DOT number.These numbers are recognised by the australian standards.I know for sure, here in queensland we dont have to have any extra numbers put onto the air cylinders to use them. We dont even have to have them tested by an australian test station at all,There are other industries in australia that use the same procedure, Divers do this all the time.OK,
NSW HAVE THERE POLICY REGARDING THE FILLING OF AIR CYLINDERS, WHICH MUST BE FOLLOWED IF YOU ARE IN NSW, DO THEY CLASS DECANTING AS FILLING?????. The Australian Standard does not mention decanting.

I have checked this out for Queenslanders, please check your own state laws.

[ticker]

wah11 does this mean nsw is not a part of Australia as we are talking about australian standards here are we not ?? and workcover nsw was on the committee "me-002" that prepared as-2030.1--1999

[Hideous]

Lol

what we have been saying all along is the other tanks arent illegal,
but read on :

Section 5 Inspections and tests to be perfomed
5.1 General Cylinders shall be inspected and tested in accordance with the following:
(a) Cylinders already stamped with a certificated test station mark These inspections and tests shall be those specified in AS2030.1, together with those as appropriate within this Standard.

If a cylinder has been stamped by a certificated test station, the test station that applied the initial stamp is saying they checked to ensure the cylinder fully complies, including the verification and registration of the design, and fillers and other test stations can treat the cylinder as one that complies.

(b) Cylinders without a certificated test station stamped mark These cylinders shall be inspected and tested as follows:

(i) In accordance with the provision of a design approval, registration or notification of identification number.
(ii) not relevant in this case
(iii) Cylinders which do not comply with item (b)(i) shall not have a test station mark applied.

It is the responsibility of the cylinder owner or his agent to supply such documentation as is required by the test station to comply with this clause

If a cylinder does not carry a certificated test station stamp, no test station can stamp the cylinder until they have seen evidence the cylinder has been design verified and registered...


Thus:

What it means in reality is that a filler cannot fill the cylinder unless it has been stamped by an Australian test station and a test station cannot stamp the cylinder until they have seen evidence the cylinder design has been verifiied then registered.
This is what Mike has done with Luxfor Australia.

Australian Standards :

If the cylinder manufacturer can supply you with confirmation from DOT (not the manufacturer themselves) that the cylinder design complies with the specification, this would probably meet the verification requirements. You would then need to apply to Workcover to have the design registered in Australia. You can then take the cylinders and proof of registration to an Australian test station for stamping.

[Mike]

Thats right guys, I bloody tried everything to get any bottles "properly approved" for nearly a year, put it down to a waist of time and lots of money, in the end I simply took a leaf out of Mac Developments book and went to a manufacturor and got them to supply me with a fully approved bottle. Getting the local testing station to put a little stamp on it does not cut it!

It has to have the A.S. number and work cover approval on the label under the fibre wrapping.............anything else and you are waisting your money. It is not able to be filled legally!

You have 4 choices.........

1. Buy an approved bottle off Action Paintball Games.
2. Buy an approved bottle off Mac Developments.
3. Ring up Luxfer or similar company and order a couple hundred approved bottles, wait 8 to 10 weeks for them to be made and delivered.
4. Be a total chump, buy a non approved bottle, whether you import it yourself or buy from some local shop / Aussie internet shop (I like to refer to these as bedroom stores), other player etc and then bitch like an idiot when no one wants to fill it at a proper tournament.

It is really up to you, just do not come up to me or Jamie at the Masters and give a hard luck story about how if you can't use your bottle you wont play, believe me, I will tell you to piss off. This whole stupid thing has been dragging on for over 4 years now. Everybody knows the rules if you can not accept it, that is your problem, not mine.

[Mike]

If you do not believe me ring Luxfer direct, ask to talk to one of their many trained staff. It really is not that hard.

Oh and to any idiots out their selling non approved bottles :fu: I can only wait until your customers start asking for their money back. Let them winge at you for a change.................................... :thumbsdow

[leathel]

Well said Mike :respekt: :respekt:
The simples thing is when you buy a cylinder guys ask the retailer if his cylinders have the Australian stanard n.o. AS2030 on it. If it dosn't then don't buy it cos you will be sorry if ya do. :(

[kinundrum]

i have a sonic 03 cocker here and was bought with a bottle on a 03 conquest last year. this bottle doesnt have the above mentioned A.S. no on it.

How are big name companys i.e.macdev getting away with this selling this gear here?

should i have the right to ask for my money back now?

[Mike]

I would suggest you give them a call, all the Mac bottles I have seen had the AS number on it.

[Hideous]

Mate

your bottle is okay.

Australian Standards stamps are not required on bottles, only that it be up to Australian Standards.. international agreements etc.

It has been given a workcover number on the bottle - which means it has had its design registration with Workcover NSW. Have a closer look for an odd string of numbers... its there I know!@

[kodos]

Should look something like "6451P97" or similar to that!

[ticker]

hideous read what you have said and read what mike said "has to have the A.S. number and work cover approval on the label under the fibre wrapping.............anything else and you are waisting your money. It is not able to be filled legally!" does this not contradict each other ??? to many experts i think.

[Hideous]

As per the previous posts - as you know - Macdev and other high pressure cylinders were and are still being imported without the AS stamps.

This has been covered in this thread. READ, its simple. This includes sCUBA, SCBA, PB and other high pressure cylinders not manufactured in Australia.

I have my documentation and email from Standards Australia, and Workcover.

Mike went through hoops because he was the first to do so, since then the Australian government has smoothed the process. But..its still a circus act

This is from Standards Australia

Section 5 Inspections and tests to be perfomed
5.1 General Cylinders shall be inspected and tested in accordance with the following:
(a) Cylinders already stamped with a certificated test station mark These inspections and tests shall be those specified in AS2030.1, together with those as appropriate within this Standard.

If a cylinder has been stamped by a certificated test station, the test station that applied the initial stamp is saying they checked to ensure the cylinder fully complies, including the verification and registration of the design, and fillers and other test stations can treat the cylinder as one that complies.

(b) Cylinders without a certificated test station stamped mark These cylinders shall be inspected and tested as follows:

(i) In accordance with the provision of a design approval, registration or notification of identification number.
(ii) not relevant in this case
(iii) Cylinders which do not comply with item (b)(i) shall not have a test station mark applied.
It is the responsibility of the cylinder owner or his agent to supply such documentation as is required by the test station to comply with this clause.

If a cylinder does not carry a certificated test station stamp, no test station can stamp the cylinder until they have seen evidence the cylinder has been design verified and registered

Like test station stamps, they are applied under epoxy. BUT BUT BUT you can give birth to a 44 gallon drum before Workcover design approval can be given or cost $$ thousands . Its not easy, just ask Mike.

Macdev went through the same design process and had Luxfor add the WC design number only.
If i want to buy 200 cylinders I can have a pic of Deadeye under the fibre !wrap...

[Hideous]

Just buy a cylinder of Macdev or Mike... This topic is just boring.

[kinundrum]

yeah at the end of the day mike is running the tourney

if he wants every body to use pink fibre wrapped bottles and not black ones you either buy a pink one or dont go!

[Mike]

No dude, it is much more than that, I personally would really prefer to pay a hell of a lot less, and be able to carry HP bottles in EVERY size, not just the two most popular and just bring any bottle straight in front the states. But alas, it is not up to me. I (and more importantly) the crew at Southern Commercial Divers aka Les and Jamie do not want Work Cover coming out again and this time coping the $70,000 fine (they have already had the visit once followed by a once only warning) for allegedly filling non approved bottle/s. Neither of us can afford a fine of this magnitude. This crap is not limited to Australia either, the exact thing happened at Sky Ball 2004 earlier this year where American teams were not allowed to use their bottles because they did not meet the neccessary standards.

I think the most important thing to remember now that we have a chance fully legitimise our industry, all guns must be registered, players licenced and bottles approved, we should run with the ball (no pun intended) and our great sport will only flourish.

Lastly, I will be talking to Gav about bringing in a system for the checking and tagging of all bottles before they can be filled at tournaments and see what the penalty will be for using non approved equipment at our tournaments. It will not be worth it for players to bother bringing them in the first place.

[kinundrum]

GAV, can you comment on weather or not you will be checking the bottles for test at the southpacs?

[eukanuba]

I spend alot of time with Workcover (W.A.) on the phone and asked them about this registered number fiasco..

I have been told this, and it can be verified by ringing the W.A. Workcover helpline..

" Workcover is not the same in W.A. as in NSW - All state's are totally different.. the laws that apply to NSW are not necessarilly relevant to any other state "

" Workcover in NSW comprises a WORKSAFE element which is not something Workcover in W.A. does - for all safety issues regarding registration or
testing - you would need to talk to WORKSAFE W.A. "

" Workcover W.A. do not do testing or issue compliance certification numbers or approval numbers as it is not a role that workcover performs - This is more along the line of a safety council or scba industry standard ".

So.. next stop..

I called "Worksafe W.A." - Ended up speaking to "Ian Rennie" - Asked about " Compliance for pressurised working cylinders "..

I described the cylinders to be similar to "Re-breathers" or Emergency air that surfers who take on big waves can use to survive for longer than normal periods while being pressed under water..
The guy I was speaking to understood what I was saying and was without an Expert in the field of law's and compliance..

Firstly - Test Station and Fill Station Requirements..
He pointed me to www.safetyline.wa.gov.au -

Look for Part 4.43 - under Acts/Laws..

Secondly - Design Approval ( which luxfer obviously has ) is AUSTRALIA WIDE.
Which means, you can import the same cylinder and fill it - providing you have a copy of the documentation and can provide it - it is not illegal to fill.

Other things we were told to look at were...

Australian Standards..
AS2030
&
AS2337 - Regarding Inspection, and testing of cylinders..

Specifically Parts 1 & 3..

Also - I was told to point at AS 2764 - Regarding Steel and Wrap alloy cylinders..

Schedule 4.1 and 4.2 regard to Cylinder design - and are pretty important..

I have been told that should we wish to try and get certain items approved - worksafe would assist us in this..

So we dont have to buy the publications...
We are able to view the library 1260 Hay St - level 5.

If anyone is interested..

- Chris.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Tom]

i think who ever is doing the air will check for test as they dont want to lose their head or there house. a new approved bottle might seem a bit expensive but remember they will last fifteen years(pretty sure) and they will be filled world wide .

[kinundrum]

yeah i thinkit might just be safer to buy a new AS stamped bottle!!

considering that we are flying all the way down from NQ!!

[Mike]

No workcover number on the bottle, then it is not able to be approved. You need that first, it does not matter who sold it to you, that is the law!

[Neil]

So, bottom line Mike, how much are bottles going to cost?
I need a new 68 3000 bottle anyway...
Cya, Neil

[Deadeye]

well i hope Virgin Blue will give me and my team mates some refunds on our tickets, no point us going if we cant get air?

[Mike]

Yep, this whole thing sux!

I am getting tired of the whole one set forward, two steps back......................... :thumbsdow :thumbsdow :thumbsdow

[Kristen]

Dam ive got 3 bottles 2 off you mike and one from macdev
but all of them are now no good
Its like last time this happened all these teams finding out they cant play at the torni because for the bottles not being THE RIGHT ONES .
I had to buy one then and now even that ones no good to me.
Some one out there needs to buy a clue so we get a lasting rule this is getting a bit expensive for me and i believe for others too

[Hideous]

Don't let me call Luxfor and find out that there is an uncompeditive arrangement here.

ACCC look dimly on such things.

[Mike]

First off what bottles have you bought off me that are not appoved, as all our bottles come from Luxfer with the same labels and always have since all this BS started.

Secondly, I did not start this whole stupid scenerio in the first place, you can thank someone else for that "everybodies bottles but ours are not approved saga". I was quite happy with the old days and the way it was, but then, I did not send Workcover to Southern Commercial Divers workplace the day after a tournament like another company, did I?

Thirdly Kristen, I have been singing the same old tune in regards to these bottles for about three or four years now, so if you chose not to listen than that is you bloody problem, not mine. If someone has sold you a bottle that they say is approved for use in Australia and it is fact not............well, I know what I would be doing...........asking for a refund!

I take absolutely no joy in any of this as it will probably cause whole teams not to play the tournament and even quite possibly result in more than one or two players leaving the sport all together. Tell me how does paintball win from that? If you have any anger over this whole debarcle I suggest you need to take it somewhere else.

I am sorry that this has become inconvenient to you, but do you suggest Les or Jamie risk their full time livlihoods, their family company just so a player such as you is not put out? If push comes to shove I am sure they would easily decide to not turn up at all.

This is a pretty shitty situation for all of us, hopefully we can overcome and
adapt just like we had to before with our stupid oppressive gun laws.

[Mike]

Hideous dude, ring Luxfer (02 9830 0913) and while ..................................................
(lets keep it a little calmer please)

[Kristen]

First off what bottles have you bought off me that are not appoved, as all our bottles come from Luxfer with the same labels and always have since all this BS started.

Secondly, I did not start this whole stupid scenerio in the first place, you can thank someone else for that "everybodies bottles but ours are not approved saga". I was quite happy with the old days and the way it was, but then, I did not send Workcover to Southern Commercial Divers workplace the day after a tournament like another company, did I?

Thirdly Kristen, I have been singing the same old tune in regards to these bottles for about three or four years now, so if you chose not to listen than that is you bloody problem, not mine. If someone has sold you a bottle that they say is approved for use in Australia and it is fact not............well, I know what I would be doing...........asking for a refund!



I take absolutely no joy in any of this as it will probably cause whole teams not to play the tournament and even quite possibly result in more than one or two players leaving the sport all together. Tell me how does paintball win from that? If you have any anger over this whole debarcle I suggest you need to take it somewhere else.

I am sorry that this has become inconvenient to you, but do you suggest Les or Jamie risk their full time livlihoods, their family company just so a player such as you is not put out? If push comes to shove I am sure they would easily decide to not turn up at all.

This is a pretty shitty situation for all of us, hopefully we can overcome and
adapt just like we had to before with our stupid oppressive gun laws.

No need to slam me mike i will post pics of the 2 bottles i got off you and i was just stating the facts not pointing the finger at any one and i believe last time is was an approves dot number not a workcover no that was the problem

[Rainman]

Well Said Mike.............

[Bill]

Don't let me call Luxfor and find out that there is an uncompeditive arrangement here.

ACCC look dimly on such things.
Carefull, others take a very dim view of inuendo like that...

[Hideous]

Leonie Marshall

Business Development Manager

Luxfer Australia

Ph: 02 9830 0913



yes I felt free, anyone is welcome to ring..
Been there done that. Now next question.

I have bought a cylinder from Mike and will buy another from him before Southpac's.

[Rainman]

Hey Hideous I hope that you are wearing your aluminium foil hat so that Mike can't read your thoughts.

[Hideous]

Its a problem put us here in the first place.

Its the people who landed us with bottles that didnt go through the process of verification.

This goes years back, its why i bought my first bottle off Mike.

I just didnt expect purchases from other Australian Didtributors to be a problem.

[Mike]

So Hideous what is your point then?

How the hell is any of this my fault???

[Hideous]

Mate, its not your fault in anything to do with this crap - you just seem the focus because you are the only one who has prepared for this mess.

I am as sick of it as you are, we we have the facts, but it doesn't seem to be getting through

WC design verification is needed before a test stamp can be put on.

A test station cannot put a valid stamp unless it has documentation to prove that it passes AS. AS stamps aren't required but WC are - either by Design Number documentation or Design Numbers somewhere affixed to the cylinder

Problem I have found that there are stamps on cylinders from Valid Australian Testing Stations.

Does this mean that the Australian testing station is taking all responsibility for design verification ? If so - how does that stand with Workcover ?

I am waiting on this before I use my Macdev bottle for a club.

Sorry Mike I am not flailing you with it but I am suprised I had to point out the Macdev issue. I hate being the boogy man.

As Neil would say "I just wanna play paintball."

[Mike]

I know I feel pretty stupid as I have been telling people for the last couple of years that Mac Dev systems were approved too. I can not believe how silly they have been not to do the whole thing properly. I only hope that they can fix this at their end so their customers (who are generally a pretty loyal lot) can use their airsystems.

I am sorry for coming down hard on you before but so far most of the calls I have taken over this are from total tools telling me how I have stuffed the sport for everyone. After a while, it can start to get to you. Now it has come down to accusations of illegal collusion with a huge multinational company, all to corner the pissy little Aussie paintball bottle market. What a joke, I make more money from one weekends bookings than I have from ALL the bottles that I have sold from day one combined!

I tried in vain to get bottles from overseas properly approved for a long time, wasted a heap of money and in the end simply gave up and bought approved bottles from Luxfer. Anyone is capable of doing so.

I believe Andrew from P.W. Sports (free plug for opposition) is in the process of importing bottles from SCI that will also have the workcover registration on them so all players will have another source for approved bottles. I am pretty sure MAc Dev will get their shit together very quickly too. So hopefully we can all overcome this BS and move on with growing our great sport.

Finally, and everyone can quote me on this, if you buy a non approved HP bottle with your Airsystem then you are simply a fool. If someone sells you a non approved air system telling you it is otherwise then you should be asking for your money back.

[TRENT]

Just to clariffy this, my macdev bottle wont be filled by southern commercial cause it doesnt have workcover number on it?

[Hideous]

YES that is correct!. no fills for Macdev

[TRENT]

James, james where are you?

[Yzo]

this might make things hard for the kiwis as well.. :confused:

[TRENT]

Yeah, they probably use conquests as well. Why do i sense Mac's phone lines will be running hot soon.

[Blobby]

trenat ...no hey wont as people will just keep n posting on here and listening to EXPERTS tout off........why ring the source and confirm anything....much easier to hear it on here

[TRENT]

Yeah hearsay if much more fun. :-(

[Mike]

I am sure that as soon as Mac Dev have got this fixed James will be on here letting us all know. I would like all the teams entered to the South Pacs to be able to play, hopefully we can all work this out. I would suggest giving everybody a couple of days.

I people I feel for the most is poor ol Gav and Timbo, here they are at their first proper tourny in years, they have spent a small fortune giving all of us a fantastic set up (lush thick stadium grass and an excellent Extreme Air field), have got a great turn out (over 16 teams I believe) for their event and this shit happens..........all just three weeks out, so nearlly everyone has booked all their flights and accomodation

Welcome back to running Tournies guys! :hammer:

[Kristen]

Dam ive got 3 bottles 2 off you mike and one from macdev
but all of them are now no good
Its like last time this happened all these teams finding out they cant play at the torni because for the bottles not being THE RIGHT ONES .
I had to buy one then and now even that ones no good to me.
Some one out there needs to buy a clue so we get a lasting rule this is getting a bit expensive for me and i believe for others too

I f##ked up the one from Mike at APG is approved and im waiting on info on the 2 from macdev

[eukanuba]

Sorry to throw the cat among the pigeon's

What does this mean ?

- Euk. :help:

[JJJ]

Sorry to throw the cat among the pigeon's

What does this mean ?

- Euk. :help:
:hammer: :hammer: :hammer: :hammer:

[Electrofunkster]

looks like you have a FARKING OLD BOTTLE !!!!

I really think people need pictures to compare too I know action posted theres but we need to see a mac one.

bill maybe you need to create a thread and all the bottle sellers of australia (action, mac, PW sports and orian) post a picture of there bottles with WC and test stamps on them so buyers are aware what to look for .. there is no point in having a illegal bottle then buying another illegal bottle as a replacement ...

[eukanuba]

Well, I have a right to know.. If I dont need to buy another - then I've saved money - and I can buy YZO's reg :)

Is it a legit test mark, or am I in possession of an illegal cylinder ? :no:

[Knackers]

Will there be heaps of bottles for sale at southpacs???